[Elwenil]

You are forgetting that many wheeling rigs still run ballast in their tires.

 

[KThaxton]

In my brief search, I only found one site that talked about this for rockcrawling purposes, while they call it "Traction Advantage", their descriptions say it helps keep the vehicles from rolling over, I would also assume this helps them keep the wheels on the ground more in a droop. I can see the advantage here as unsprung weight, but not sprung weight, again, Ryan proved it. If simply adding weight was an advantage, the pros would be doing it.

http://rockcrawler-mrt.com/TRACTION%20ADVANTAGE%20by%20MRW.html

 

[Elwenil]

Sprung or unsprung, weight still adds to the traction if the footprint is the same.  Some rigs do not need it but most vehicles with non-specialized suspension will need weight to gain the flex and ground pressure off road.  It can defeat you in some cases such as steep climbs where the weight fights you but similarly a vehicle with a light weight can have traction problems due to lack of ground pressure.

 

[SuperBurban]

Why would you want your tires to sink in gravel?

Traction. Just like someone gets a fancy new 4x4, with wide azz tires, and goes flying down the road in the snow, and goes to turn, but the rig goes straight.

I know you think its cool, take a light azz rig, put wide azz tires on it so there is as little ground pressure as possible, that way you can show it off by smoking all 4 tires.

 

[KThaxton]

It can defeat you in some cases such as steep climbs where the weight fights you but similarly a vehicle with a light weight can have traction problems due to lack of ground pressure.

That's just it, how often is traction an issue when wheelin on level ground?

Traction. Just like someone gets a fancy new 4x4, with wide azz tires, and goes flying down the road in the snow, and goes to turn, but the rig goes straight.

I'm somewhat confused by your gravel example (snow that is not deep yes, but gravel?), when a wheel sinks in ANY kind of surface, traction is hindered. You're better off on top of it, sand, deep snow, gravel.

I know you think its cool, take a light azz rig, put wide azz tires on it so there is as little ground pressure as possible, that way you can show it off by smoking all 4 tires.

Are you saying those big racing slicks on dragsters don't get good traction?

I'm assumeing your being sarcastic about me thinking smoking tires is cool (at least I hope you are!), but on many surfaces, surface area can be just as or more important than surface pressure.....especially when you can sink.

 

[SuperBurban]

That's just it, how often is traction an issue when wheelin on level ground?

Now you are being sarcastic, I hope.

when a wheel sinks in ANY kind of surface, traction is hindered. You're better off on top of it, sand, deep snow, gravel.

How is floating on top of something that is not a solid, better? Only time, is when the bottom is so deep that the axles, or frame, or something will drag.

 

[KThaxton]

Now you are being sarcastic, I hope.

No sarcasm. I cannot think of one situation, off-road (excluding thin snow and mud) that traction would be an issue, where more weight would help. Flat ground with a couple of boulders to go over? Light is still better.

How is floating on top of something that is not a solid, better? Only time, is when the bottom is so deep that the axles, or frame, or something will drag.

Ever been in sand? Deep snow? You don't have to be up to your axles for it to hinder forward motoin. I triple guarantee it.

Just look at:
Dune buggies-big tires that float on the sand, or skinny tires that sink?
Those arctic tundra trucks- big floatation or not?
Snowmobiles- what's the big surface area of a track for?
Why does your 10 wheeled vehicle have 10 wheels?

Quite frankly, I'm surprised you asked such a question.

 

[85 Royal SE Prospector]

No sarcasm. I cannot think of one situation, off-road (excluding thin snow and mud) that traction would be an issue, where more weight would help. Flat ground with a couple of boulders to go over? Light is still better.

That's what he means, light snow and mud, and the tons of other variables. Just normally more weight=more traction.

Wide, somewhat tall tires on a heavy vehicle get the most traction, they will. It takes something out of the ordinary for them to have lose traction faster. Weight does hurt climbing but it isn't traction that will overcome it. Then you are back to preschool fundamentals of automobile mechanics.

Yes, you do add weight for traction by the way. You do not lose weight for traction. In off-roading rigs that are already going to be relatively heavy you don't see much adding weight. In drag and roundy-round cars though more weight is more traction, so weight lost is focused toward the front while keeping weight at the back for traction's sake, just like 2wd pickemup drivers add weight to the bed to add traction.

 

[SuperBurban]

Ever been in sand? Deep snow? You don't have to be up to your axles for it to hinder forward motoin. I triple guarantee it.

Just look at:
Dune buggies-big tires that float on the sand, or skinny tires that sink?
Those arctic tundra trucks- big floatation or not?
Snowmobiles- what's the big surface area of a track for?
Why does your 10 wheeled vehicle have 10 wheels?

Quite frankly, I'm surprised you asked such a question.

Only time, is when the bottom is so deep that the axles, or frame, or something will drag.

 

[KThaxton]

Yes, you do add weight for traction by the way.

Aside from farm tractors and truck pulls (where weight is added to keep the nose down), give me an example of a situation where weight is added?

You do not lose weight for traction.

If you lose weight, traction can be maintained longer.

In off-roading rigs that are already going to be relatively heavy you don't see much adding weight.

Give me some examples of heavy off-road rigs? Baja, rockcrawling etc etc, they make them as light as they reasonbly can.

In drag and roundy-round cars though more weight is more traction,

So are you saying they add weight to these cars? That is asinine. They may distribute necessary weight to improve traction, but they do not add weight.

so weight lost is focused toward the front while keeping weight at the back for traction's sake,

Again, they do not add weight for traction, they distribute weight that is necesarry to aid traction.

just like 2wd pickemup drivers add weight to the bed to add traction.

2wd trucks and rwd cars need to do this because the bulk of their weight is not above the driving wheels, that weight is added to overcome this. If you could move the weight from the non-driving wheels to the driving wheels (i.e. moving the engine to the rear) no weight has been added and it would behave better in the snow.....except maybe steering would get worse.

Only time, is when the bottom is so deep that the axles, or frame, or something will drag.

Ok then, tell me what the advantage is of sinking, but not all the way to the axles? I can tell you with absolute certainty....because I've done it many times....if I stay on top of the deep snow or sand, I move much easier and spin less than when I sink in the snow or sand.

I'm suspecting you've never been in this situation?

 

[SuperBurban]

I'm suspecting you've never been in this situation?

You are so right, I have never driven off road. You are the off road king, my bad.

 

[85 Royal SE Prospector]

2wd trucks and rwd cars need to do this because the bulk of their weight is not above the driving wheels, that weight is added to overcome this. If you could move the weight from the non-driving wheels to the driving wheels (i.e. moving the engine to the rear) no weight has been added and it would behave better in the snow.....except maybe steering would get worse.

But that would mean the rear would have lighter weight and more traction since it is a level surface. What you are saying is that moving the weight from the non-driving wheels to the driving wheels (a.k.a. adding weight to the driving wheels) assists in traction.

Distribution of weight is losing it somewhere and adding it somewhere else. It adds weight in some place for traction's sake. Weight is concentrated at the rear of a drag car to assist in rear wheel traction.

On dry road, snow, rain, or ice which is better for traction? Heavy truck with wide tires or light car with slim tires much lower down.

Light for a serious off-road rig is higher than for many 2wd cars. Doubling the axles up, adding the transfer case, and all that adds weight to the vehicle.

 

[Elwenil]

That's just it, how often is traction an issue when wheelin on level ground?

When trying to pull someone out of a ditch, which I think is what started this nightmare, lol.

 

[KThaxton]

You are so right, I have never driven off road. You are the off road king, my bad.

Finally!

Really though, what advantage is there to sinking?

But that would mean the rear would have lighter weight and more traction since it is a level surface.

Not following you on that one.

What you are saying is that moving the weight from the non-driving wheels to the driving wheels (a.k.a. adding weight to the driving wheels) assists in traction.

I think we are starting to argue down two different paths here.

I agree that on flat surfaces where gravity and inertia are not much of a concern, traction is increased with more weight. Once inertia comes into play (stopping or cornering quickly) or gravity (up or down hill), this is when extra weight can cause traction to be lost.

I still stand firm on:

-A vehicle made by Dodge, doesn't get more traction just because it's a Dodge.
-When climbing, heavy breaks traction sooner than light, all things being equal.
-In motorsports, nobody (besides truck pulls) adds weight to get more traction. They will distribute it however.
-Staying on top of soft surfaces is always better than sinking.
-Chris types too much

Distribution of weight is losing it somewhere and adding it somewhere else. It adds weight in some place for traction's sake. Weight is concentrated at the rear of a drag car to assist in rear wheel traction.

No argument here, they didn't ADD weight, they move it.

On dry road, snow, rain, or ice which is better for traction? Heavy truck with wide tires or light car with slim tires much lower down.

Too many variables, not enough info, not even going to try to answer that.

Light for a serious off-road rig is higher than for many 2wd cars. Doubling the axles up, adding the transfer case, and all that adds weight to the vehicle.

My assumption was you were referring to competition trucks (baja, rock crawling etc) being heavier than regular trucks.

When trying to pull someone out of a ditch, which I think is what started this nightmare, lol.

I can agree to that...but that's not wheelin is it? Nor did this truck pull it and the others failed simple because it was a Dodge.

 

[SuperBurban]

Ask any farmer, they routinely add fill the tractors with an antifreeze mixture to add weight. Their tires are designed to dig in, not float. You cannot pull with tires that float

Race cars have spoilers to exert more down force for more cornering traction.

Look here, they use weight in the traction equation.

Usable Traction = coefficient of Traction x Weight

Here you have an off road site

weight on the tire - The more weight on a tire, the more traction it has.

I'm done.

 

[minnesota guy]

KtHaxton, go have a beer young man!

My story was a good memory.  The Chevy in the ditch, The Jacked up Ford with similar tires couldnt pull it out of the ditch.  This is snow county.  The Snow Fiter probably had posi front and rear..Just relax--We are All dodge guys here..just a good story triggered by the debate which even I forget what it was...This was the 70's and all had their factory tires...

Come to Mn and lets hook our trucks rear to rear to settle this!

 

[KThaxton]

KtHaxton, go have a beer young man!
Just relax--

I am just dandy, I'm going in vacation tomorrow . I just have a hard time holding back when I hear such brand loyalty, that logic is thrown out the window.

This is snow county

I too, am in snow country, 5-6 months year.

Come to Mn and lets hook our trucks rear to rear to settle this!

Oh brother...don't get me started on the tug of war thing.....that's just as juvenile! Lanty, you can field that one.

Ask any farmer, they routinely add fill the tractors with an antifreeze mixture to add weight. Their tires are designed to dig in, not float. You cannot pull with tires that float

If they are digging down to something firm (i.e. past the top soil) then it makes perfect sense to add weight. If terra firma is not close to the surface, one must float.

But, this whole thing has lost it's way, since I orignally said a lighter vehicle will climb better with all other things being equal things (which is a fact), now we are on the subject of tractors that are pulling implements through a field. Kind of shot off a bit far.

Race cars have spoilers to exert more down force for more cornering traction.

Yeah, that is wonderful. They can get more weight to press down on the wheels without adding it to the vehicle, which helps that inertia thing I talked about. I think you missed my last post.

If you disagree with everything I've said, explain what happened in Ryan's case.
He tries to climb out of a hole, his wheels slip!.
He removes weight, his wheels slip less and he makes it out.

Is not a slipping wheel an indication of a loss of traction?

 

[Elwenil]

Lanty, you can field that one.

No, no, not me, lol. I got pretty good at it years ago and usually won as long as nothing broke but breaking stuff for stupid bragging rights wasn't really worth it. I will say this about hooking bumpers, it's 75% technique, 20% truck and 5% luck. The type of truck rarely has anything to do with it. It's all about how it's hooked up and who breaks traction first.

 

[SuperBurban]

If you disagree with everything I've said, explain what happened in Ryan's case.
He tries to climb out of a hole, his wheels slip!.
He removes weight, his wheels slip less and he makes it out.

Never disagreed with everything, you keep insisting that lighter = more traction in all cases.

Even Ryans case.

The best proof of light weight winning (besides the fact that you never see competition buggies, or any hard core guys "add" weight for traction, they are always trying to lose weight) is our own Ryan (PJTPW). If I remember his story correctly...one day he was trying to get his truggy out of one of the hot tubs in Moab. He could not do it. He removed his toolbox, got closer, then he removed his spare tire (44" Super Swamper IIRC) too, then he was able to get out no problem. Same vehicle, same day, same tires only difference was weight.

Sounds like a simple weight transfer issue, by removing the weight, he effectively lowered the center of gravity, so when he climbed the sides, the center of gravity was still over the tires. Taking that same weight, and placing it on his front bumper would have moved the center of gravity forward, so when he climbed the hil, the CG would still be over the tires, would have done the same thing without removing any weight.

Next

 

[KThaxton]

you keep insisting that lighter = more traction in all cases.

Not, I said when climbing lighter wins every time.

Sounds like a simple weight transfer issue, by removing the weight, he effectively lowered the center of gravity, so when he climbed the sides, the center of gravity was still over the tires. Taking that same weight, and placing it on his front bumper would have moved the center of gravity forward, so when he climbed the hil, the CG would still be over the tires, would have done the same thing without removing any weight.

That's one that we're just going to have to agree to disagree on.