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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Seems I still have some, I am trying to figure out why my freshly rebuilt tranny quit after just one day of hard use, it worked great for about 3 1/2 hours, in some of the hardest rock crawling i have done yet, it just walked up whatever , now I got it home after the axle breakage and I backed it off the trailer, and used the winch to pull the hauler/camper out of the way , then the tranny went dead, Now I have bee playing with it to see if i can get it to come back, and it feels like it may be the transfer case but im not sure yet, when i shift the case thru the gears I can feel the tranny moving something, and the tires kick some while shifting from t case neutral to hi or low, but there is no go, when i put the tranny in any gear and the case in gear with the truck on jack stands, while rolling the front tire forward the rear tires go backward, would this be the differential in the 203 working or did it fail ?, I have never seen the a drive train do that, ususally if its in gear it will all roll the same directioin when off the ground, what else could cause that?
Also the case feels realy easy to shift unless the engine is running and the tranny is in gear, how could i tell for sure which one it might be other than seperating them and pulling them out of the truck, , I have done some pressure tests on the tranny as well and if i am doing then right then there is no pressure at all, which would say its the tranny, possibly the pump or the converter, or maybe the input shaft broken, I would think i would have heard a major failure of a shaft or converter, but not sure.
the pump may have failed but it would have to about be the two lugs that the converter turns it by that broke off, and that should have probably made some noise too, I havent dropped he tranny pan just yet but i have drained a little fluid to see if it was burnt , its brand new looking, no burnt or darkness to the fluid at all, is there a way to see that the t case is working while not being turned by the tranny or a way to see if i am doing the pressure checks wrong? I have only checked pressure at the taps on the side of the case so far, but the book tell how to install a tee fitting into the cooler lines to check main line fluid pressure, which i am going to do in a while, I may be pulling the t case to try to turn it by hand and check that it goes into gear but the opposite rotation of the front and rear tires has me stumped, if anyone has any ideas im wide open for em
 

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As I understand this, you had some kind of axle failure, right? OK, assuming that the axle is broken so that power isn't turning the tires, your full time transfer case will not work properly in anything other than Hi Lock or Low Lock.

It's just like if you tried to drive without a front driveshaft, In just High or Low (Not High Lock or Low Lock) the differential in the t-case will send all the power to the driveshaft with least resistance. In your case the driveshaft is still in place and you busted something in the axle.

Yes the diff could cause the front drivetrain to spin in one direction while the rear spins in the other direction. The samething will happen with the tires on each side of an axle when the axle is equipped with an open diff. Put the t-case in either lock position and all of the tires should spin in the same direction, but first fix the axle, depending on the kind of damage it sustained, trying to use a broken axle can create bind up within the broken parts and seize up everything. The damage can be made alot worse.

Ed
 

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you may want to pull the side cover and see if the chain broke in the tcase also.
 

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Another thing is check the linkage on the 203 to make sure that its truely engaging the t case. one of mine thats what happened the linkage broke and didnt mater what position if felt like it was engaging and didnt
 

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if you did break the diff, I have a tcase with the HD two piece cast iron diff that I wil be parting out as I am gonna use the range box for other things
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
RXT said:
As I understand this, you had some kind of axle failure, right? OK, assuming that the axle is broken so that power isn't turning the tires, your full time transfer case will not work properly in anything other than Hi Lock or Low Lock.

It's just like if you tried to drive without a front driveshaft, In just High or Low (Not High Lock or Low Lock) the differential in the t-case will send all the power to the driveshaft with least resistance. In your case the driveshaft is still in place and you busted something in the axle.

Yes the diff could cause the front drivetrain to spin in one direction while the rear spins in the other direction. The samething will happen with the tires on each side of an axle when the axle is equipped with an open diff. Put the t-case in either lock position and all of the tires should spin in the same direction, but first fix the axle, depending on the kind of damage it sustained, trying to use a broken axle can create bind up within the broken parts and seize up everything. The damage can be made alot worse.

Ed
well yes I had an axle break, it was the u joint/long &short shaft and ball joints on the front left side, however I have welded diffs, so the problem of the case not operating in lock or not shouldnt be an issue, it should (and did while driving it out of the canyon) transmit power to the front diff and the right side axle with out any problem, meaning that the broken side axle wont spin out as it would in an open diff and both sides receive equal power weather or not one axle is present.
I kinda need to know exactly how the t case diff could cause the front and rear to turn opposite eachother, it would seem that some breakage would have to had occur to allow this in a t case , when the case is in low or hi lock it wont turn much if at all by turning the tires ( i have the truck off the ground) but it still kind of kicks opposite when i try to turn the tire, when its not locked it turns opposite very easily
 

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Dodgeman said:
well yes I had an axle break, it was the u joint/long &short shaft and ball joints on the front left side, however I have welded diffs, so the problem of the case not operating in lock or not shouldnt be an issue, it should (and did while driving it out of the canyon) transmit power to the front diff and the right side axle with out any problem, meaning that the broken side axle wont spin out as it would in an open diff and both sides receive equal power weather or not one axle is present.
I kinda need to know exactly how the t case diff could cause the front and rear to turn opposite eachother, it would seem that some breakage would have to had occur to allow this in a t case , when the case is in low or hi lock it wont turn much if at all by turning the tires ( i have the truck off the ground) but it still kind of kicks opposite when i try to turn the tire, when its not locked it turns opposite very easily
The transfer case is not a tranny with seperate reverse gears, so there is nothing inside that can break in such a way to cause one side to turn in the opposite direction than the other. You are familar with regular axles equipped with an open differential. When you lift an axle off the ground and turn one tire by hand, the other side spins in the other direction. This is a result of the action of the spider gears inside the carrier. The exact samething happens with the differential inside the transfercase. When you spin the tires on one axle by hand, the spider gears within the differential will reverse the rotation to the other axle. This is completely normal. Now the reason why you are unable to turn the tires when you lock in the transfer case is probably because your tranny is in park. The parking pawl inside the tranny prevents the drivetrain from turning. When the t-case is in the unlocked position and you spin the tires, you're not turning the tranny or the input shaft in the t-case, only the spider gears are turning. Go back to the axle with open diff example. When you turn one tire, the other spins in the opposite direction, but the ring and pinion isn't turning.

Try putting the tranny in neutral but remember that the tranny may still put up more resistance to turning then the spider gears, and therefore the differential may still turn the other axle in the opposite direction. This is normal.

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
ya the tranny was in neutral and in gear and in park, (tried em all) when this reverse action is happening, I guess it must be correct if the tranny itself is too tight to spin as if it were in park or something in the rear 1/2 of the tranny is done for?, I guess im just hoping its not the tranny and trying to find something else it could be, but i guess it about has to be, I will be pulling the pan in a while when it cools off a bit, just to look inside and see if i see anything then maybe have to pull it out
 

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Sort of sounds like the bands are pooched or the converter didn't engage the pump properly and has now screwed the pump
 

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I'm guessing the big snap ring, that holds the pack and pressure plate in place, broke and allowed the pressure plate edge seal to blow or get cut... and leaks all the pressure... Damn the luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
after some checking,,I think Kyot may be onto something here, as i was beginning to pull the tranny I was getting the last of the 4 converter bolts out, and low and behold the converter pushed/fell back into the tranny almost 5/8 of an inch, thats too much, now i know dam well that i measured the depth of the converter when set into the tranny on the bench, but,,(theres always a but), I didnt realize that while installing the tranny that it pulled the converter out the 5/8 of an inch (i dunno how i missed it but i must have cause it does, after some rereading/studying, the book says the converter should only pull out 1/8 od and inch, so i measured the slot depth on the converter hub and its only 1/2 inch, meaning that the converter hub could very well have pulled out far enuf to not be turning the pump. also meaning that I will need to get a different flex plate?? or maybe whip up some balanced spacers to space it correctly, im thinking to put some calibrated washers in there to space it and see if that works for test purposes, I can pull the converter out to meet the flex plate and while rotating the converter back and fourth I dont hear the pump gear teeth hitting , when i push the converter in there is a distinct difference in the noise and feel of the pump being turned, as for my washer/spacers, im thinking if i were to weigh them and make sure i add the same thickness and weight to all 4 bolts , and get longer bolts I could possibly avoid pulling it, if my theory is correct it may have just slipped off the 2 lugs in the pump, possibly trimming them( or the converter hub) down an 1/8 inch but if spaced and weighted it shoudl maby possibly work, if not its gotta be some internal pressure leak and i will be pulling it anyway, it almost cant be any worn out bnds cause they only have about 3-4 hours on them and they ran strong and tight til it just quit, there was no burnt fluid or chunks or shavings in the fluid, , and during the pressure checks i had almost 0 psi at all the ports, the gauge i used was a refrigerant hi side gauge which will read to 500 psi so its not too accurate for the 0-5 psi range i may have to sacrifice a low side gauge which reads to 150 but is more accurate at lower pressures, for my next test, I will keep ya'll posted as to what i find

and by the way, this is really fun to figure this stuff out as i go, I am not too fond of pulling and installing the tranny but I am really learning a lot about the 727 in the process, some day I will be an expert and will have all the answers to problems with it:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
it was in every gear during the pressure checks, still nothing, I am looking for longer bolts to see if its the converter engauging the pump or not, as far as killing the pump, theres not much to kill, and i didnt hear a snap or nuthing,

ohh and Eric,, a Fat lotta help you are here,,lol,, I think you could be right, but we have to eliminate every other possiblilty first
 

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Dodgeman said:
it was in every gear during the pressure checks, still nothing, I am looking for longer bolts to see if its the converter engauging the pump or not, as far as killing the pump, theres not much to kill, and i didnt hear a snap or nuthing,

ohh and Eric,, a Fat lotta help you are here,,lol,, I think you could be right, but we have to eliminate every other possiblilty first
ok would it help if i told you to convert to part time and come get the tranny and tcase out of my mom and dads shed? i am still debating if i want to swap it in my truck and shorten the tailshaft to work with the 203 or not.

hmmmm, one other thing, steve, you are aware you wont have any power in neutral dont you? ;D ;D

eric
 
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